"Doing all the things the brosphere tells [young men] to do might not actually be effective in attracting women." My experience suggests that most women, in fact, find such posturing off-putting. This piece nails it on so many levels! You rock, Charlotte!
I think this is the tip of the iceberg of a larger conversation, Charlotte. I've done a bit of research on "The Trouble with Boys" and related topics. Educationally speaking, the data are showing a larger gap between boys' and girls' performance on academic tests (girls are performing better), among other data points. The whys of that are less clear. In conversations with colleagues we've noted that more women are graduating from college then men, more women are in leadership positions, more women are coaching men. For women, we feel we're ready for it. Beyond ready for it. We've been taught by fantastic women leaders how to climb the ladder of success. It's been hard, and it's still hard, even harder now, but we have a path. However, men have not had a path to learning how to be led or coached by women. In some cases, even working beside women is new in some careers. Are boys being taught how to navigate this changing dynamic? Societally speaking, boys are still raised to be boys, empowered to lead, to be bosses, but not how to do it side by side with their female peers. Until we raise our sons to take direction from women as often as they do men, I fear there will continue to be men who are affronted by women with opinions that differ from their own. And, I speak in generalities about the situation in the U.S., of course. There are plenty of fantastic men who are able and willing to support women leaders.
I just posted something on this very topic addressing something I’m not sure I’ve ever seen mentioned before. Check my (free) Substack and let me know what you think.
Agree. Mine are 17 and 18 and I think they are on the right track. But I still hear so many "boy moms" talk in the language of toxic masculinity. It is exhausting.
I like your angle on this issue (the focus on men). Still, I kept reading through my own lens, as a “husky” woman who has been taught to believe that I am less valuable on the planet because of the shape of my body. Judging others by their physique is, as you note, supported (promoted) by billion-dollar media and industry. But it’s not treated as a “preference” for fit bodies. It is about assigning worth and value to a person.
This message gets internalized, such that it doesn’t matter that I’m an intelligent, capable, kind, compassionate, or “good” person. I still feel “less than” the fit, beautiful people. If I had a before and after set-up, where the after version was slim and fit. Part of me would want accolades for the “improvement”. But part of me wants to believe that my value in the world had not really changed.
Dems support DEI and get pilloried for it. Republicans say there is a masculinity crisis, blame it on DEI, and suddenly we’re back where we were 75 years ago. There are a multitude of cultural and biological issues to untangle here before any progress can be made, but until a large number of Americans learn to get over their sense of entitlement, superiority, and victimhood…good luck.
Wonderful essay. In miniature, I have seen some of the same psychic implosion with young men majoring in Biology as they discover after a year or two that they are not, as long promised by doting parents etc, going become a doctor.
Excellent article. I'm a 73 year old woman and I've lived through it all (sexual discrimination, sexual harassment, sexual assault) in a male dominated career (academia, including administration), in a male dominated field (accounting); having a Catholic priest try to groom me and giving me a forced, passionate kiss when I was 12; taking a walk when I was 13 and waiting for a traffic light when a man pulled up, with his penis in his hand, trying to talk me into getting into his car; as well as finding out about restraining orders and protective orders later in life. The tragedy is that I'm not alone, and I'm not even on the high end of such events. To this day, I avoid going out at night if I have to walk to my car alone, especially in a parking garage. I lived through the days of walking past a construction site only to have many of the men yell vulgarities at me and make sexual threats; having male work colleagues make sexual "jokes" and comments. The list is very long. I have no patience for the numerous articles talking about how difficult it is for young men, especially white men who still rule the planet. As Charlotte wrote, there is no talk of taking personal responsibility, for maturing, and for the fact that most people, most of the time, don't get what they want in life and must make compromises. As an academic I can agree that I saw the changes close up. More women are applying for, out performing males, and graduating from college with undergraduate and graduate degrees; more women enter fields of study that were once considered male only. It took a while, but now, when I need a new doctor, I can easily find a woman doctor. As discussed, young men are being told that they have no responsibility, no accountability, no expectation that they mature, and that women are the cause of their problems because we are viewed as property. It's been said that most men think about sex multiple times during the day. I've never seen it said that most women worry about being assaulted and raped by men on a regular basis, depending on how safe they feel at any given moment. There's a reason most women chose the bear.
I hope this gets the word out to people. But I somehow doubt any self reflection is going to happen. Too many people are taught they're right, about everything (no push back in their tiny micro lives). There is a good article about raising independent kids out recently... parents should get back to that.
Charlotte, I really think these young angry men want to blame women for every problem they and the world have and Trump gives them the way to do that. And running a woman candidate was the perfect scenario for them to blame women more. Trump pointed to the woman (a Black woman to boot) and said she’s the reason for your problems and they ate it all up. If any man had been running against him, not just Biden, Newsom, Shapiro, Bashear, whoever, they couldn’t have blamed women so readily. But they did and here we are.
I also wish we’d all stop making fun of any young guy who likes video games and anime and assuming they’re part of the toxic culture. My son likes those things but is also really a kind soul. He introduced me to an Anime show called Monster and that’s one of the most philosophical shows I’ve ever seen.
Nailed it--so interesting to get your nuanced perspective.
"... conveniently absolves young men from any responsibility..." This is the key to everything that has been targeting young men's attention. From wearing oversized shorts and backwards caps, as if they are toddlers (thank goodness that ridiculous fashion trend has been fading) I've noticed there is a very direct line to Andrew Tate doing whatever he wants with young girls.
The entire point is to pursue the entitlement of never having real responsibilities or ever being held accountable--because these are spoiled boys, child men. Just watch Rogan, all the red meat podcasters out there. They exude middle school boy nervousness, they celebrate ignorance and inability to speak intelligently, they indulge in cruelty, and celebrate boys getting to do whatever they want--even as they urge young women to 'stay in the box'. All conversations revert back to what men want.
Most women know real men aren't like this. Most women have experienced what it is like to deal with spoiled frat boys who just don't want to grow up, and consequently, politely decline 'hooking up'.
The fury launched by that decision is what is most telling.
"Doing all the things the brosphere tells [young men] to do might not actually be effective in attracting women." My experience suggests that most women, in fact, find such posturing off-putting. This piece nails it on so many levels! You rock, Charlotte!
I think this is the tip of the iceberg of a larger conversation, Charlotte. I've done a bit of research on "The Trouble with Boys" and related topics. Educationally speaking, the data are showing a larger gap between boys' and girls' performance on academic tests (girls are performing better), among other data points. The whys of that are less clear. In conversations with colleagues we've noted that more women are graduating from college then men, more women are in leadership positions, more women are coaching men. For women, we feel we're ready for it. Beyond ready for it. We've been taught by fantastic women leaders how to climb the ladder of success. It's been hard, and it's still hard, even harder now, but we have a path. However, men have not had a path to learning how to be led or coached by women. In some cases, even working beside women is new in some careers. Are boys being taught how to navigate this changing dynamic? Societally speaking, boys are still raised to be boys, empowered to lead, to be bosses, but not how to do it side by side with their female peers. Until we raise our sons to take direction from women as often as they do men, I fear there will continue to be men who are affronted by women with opinions that differ from their own. And, I speak in generalities about the situation in the U.S., of course. There are plenty of fantastic men who are able and willing to support women leaders.
I just posted something on this very topic addressing something I’m not sure I’ve ever seen mentioned before. Check my (free) Substack and let me know what you think.
I honestly believe one of my most important jobs is to raise two young men who do not subscribe to the toxicity our culture pushes onto men.
Agreed. I have two sons and I often say my goal in raising them is that they don't grow up to be assholes. It sounds like a joke, but it's really not.
Agree. Mine are 17 and 18 and I think they are on the right track. But I still hear so many "boy moms" talk in the language of toxic masculinity. It is exhausting.
I like your angle on this issue (the focus on men). Still, I kept reading through my own lens, as a “husky” woman who has been taught to believe that I am less valuable on the planet because of the shape of my body. Judging others by their physique is, as you note, supported (promoted) by billion-dollar media and industry. But it’s not treated as a “preference” for fit bodies. It is about assigning worth and value to a person.
This message gets internalized, such that it doesn’t matter that I’m an intelligent, capable, kind, compassionate, or “good” person. I still feel “less than” the fit, beautiful people. If I had a before and after set-up, where the after version was slim and fit. Part of me would want accolades for the “improvement”. But part of me wants to believe that my value in the world had not really changed.
Dems support DEI and get pilloried for it. Republicans say there is a masculinity crisis, blame it on DEI, and suddenly we’re back where we were 75 years ago. There are a multitude of cultural and biological issues to untangle here before any progress can be made, but until a large number of Americans learn to get over their sense of entitlement, superiority, and victimhood…good luck.
Wonderful essay. In miniature, I have seen some of the same psychic implosion with young men majoring in Biology as they discover after a year or two that they are not, as long promised by doting parents etc, going become a doctor.
Excellent article. I'm a 73 year old woman and I've lived through it all (sexual discrimination, sexual harassment, sexual assault) in a male dominated career (academia, including administration), in a male dominated field (accounting); having a Catholic priest try to groom me and giving me a forced, passionate kiss when I was 12; taking a walk when I was 13 and waiting for a traffic light when a man pulled up, with his penis in his hand, trying to talk me into getting into his car; as well as finding out about restraining orders and protective orders later in life. The tragedy is that I'm not alone, and I'm not even on the high end of such events. To this day, I avoid going out at night if I have to walk to my car alone, especially in a parking garage. I lived through the days of walking past a construction site only to have many of the men yell vulgarities at me and make sexual threats; having male work colleagues make sexual "jokes" and comments. The list is very long. I have no patience for the numerous articles talking about how difficult it is for young men, especially white men who still rule the planet. As Charlotte wrote, there is no talk of taking personal responsibility, for maturing, and for the fact that most people, most of the time, don't get what they want in life and must make compromises. As an academic I can agree that I saw the changes close up. More women are applying for, out performing males, and graduating from college with undergraduate and graduate degrees; more women enter fields of study that were once considered male only. It took a while, but now, when I need a new doctor, I can easily find a woman doctor. As discussed, young men are being told that they have no responsibility, no accountability, no expectation that they mature, and that women are the cause of their problems because we are viewed as property. It's been said that most men think about sex multiple times during the day. I've never seen it said that most women worry about being assaulted and raped by men on a regular basis, depending on how safe they feel at any given moment. There's a reason most women chose the bear.
I hope this gets the word out to people. But I somehow doubt any self reflection is going to happen. Too many people are taught they're right, about everything (no push back in their tiny micro lives). There is a good article about raising independent kids out recently... parents should get back to that.
Thank you again for articulating something better than I could on my best day.
Charlotte, I really think these young angry men want to blame women for every problem they and the world have and Trump gives them the way to do that. And running a woman candidate was the perfect scenario for them to blame women more. Trump pointed to the woman (a Black woman to boot) and said she’s the reason for your problems and they ate it all up. If any man had been running against him, not just Biden, Newsom, Shapiro, Bashear, whoever, they couldn’t have blamed women so readily. But they did and here we are.
I also wish we’d all stop making fun of any young guy who likes video games and anime and assuming they’re part of the toxic culture. My son likes those things but is also really a kind soul. He introduced me to an Anime show called Monster and that’s one of the most philosophical shows I’ve ever seen.
Nailed it--so interesting to get your nuanced perspective.
"... conveniently absolves young men from any responsibility..." This is the key to everything that has been targeting young men's attention. From wearing oversized shorts and backwards caps, as if they are toddlers (thank goodness that ridiculous fashion trend has been fading) I've noticed there is a very direct line to Andrew Tate doing whatever he wants with young girls.
The entire point is to pursue the entitlement of never having real responsibilities or ever being held accountable--because these are spoiled boys, child men. Just watch Rogan, all the red meat podcasters out there. They exude middle school boy nervousness, they celebrate ignorance and inability to speak intelligently, they indulge in cruelty, and celebrate boys getting to do whatever they want--even as they urge young women to 'stay in the box'. All conversations revert back to what men want.
Most women know real men aren't like this. Most women have experienced what it is like to deal with spoiled frat boys who just don't want to grow up, and consequently, politely decline 'hooking up'.
The fury launched by that decision is what is most telling.
YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES.